Imagethief

Glad to see Imagethief helping poke holes in the "Chinese youth must be anti-government" delusion/confusion. It will take much more exposure for this idea to make it into the heads of Americans (I can't speak for other Westerners) -- if it ever does. It runs counter to the narrative we've taken from other movements. Wasn't it the young people of East Germany who were most eager to tear down that wall? Wasn't Russian president Medvedev listening to Deep Purple and thinking anti-establishment thoughts in his youth, at the end of the Soviet empire?

Many Americans, including politicians who should know better, have only that one possible storyline for what they see as an inevitable movement towards democracy: "The youth shall lead us there!" The worry is that this complete misunderstanding of China's internal political reality will result in miscalculation and missteps in future politics, both by the American government itself and by the many NGOs with an interest in influencing China.

One thing that westerners don't understand, and in fact the Chinese themselves don't see, is that Chinese people are easier to indoctrinate than other people. That may seem like a generalization, but witness the fervor they showed in support of recent, mass, illogical and wrong movements, including the cultural revolution, the Great Leap Forward, and even communism in general. A Chinese friend explained to me that this occurs since they are just a few generations removed from the last emperor, who was believed to be a God. In any case, a truer characterization of the pro-government nationalism we are seeing is just another bout of group thinking, and there's no hope to reason with them when that happens-- remember how hard it was to turn away the Japanese from the same fervor they believed and fought for in support of their own emperor in the second world war.

In April of 2001, in the wake of the Hainan EP-3 Spy Plane Incident, I wrote an essay for Time (it's still online at http://tinyurl.com/5dtx3e) which sought to explain how ardent nationalism could coexist with liberalism in the political makeup of so many Chinese people. I think it's still very timely.

The upshot is that historically the two developed very much in lock-step: western liberalism was seen by reform-minded Chinese of the Qing and by leading thinkers throughout the Republican period as a means to achieve the end of national wealth and power. It was embraced by only the smallest of minorities as an end in itself. Remember this and your puzzlement over these stridently nationalistic youth -- if not your aggravation at their excesses -- vanishes.

From what I read Frank seems more likely to be indoctrinated in one way or another, but I completely understand that there has to be some good reason for a person to be so pathetic .

When dealing with forces outside of China, the Chinese youth are all for the government.  This is what they understand as patriotic.  But when you ask them about internal policies and conditions, the situation would be completely different.

The Chinese government uses this very effectively.  Whenever there is sign of internal trouble when support from Chinese is reduced, they bring up the ugly world outside of China to bring up their support.  That's why every unrest in China has at least external support, if not instigated by the CIA.

"One thing that westerners don't understand, and in fact the Chinese themselves don't see, is that Chinese people are easier to indoctrinate than other people."

I agree entirely that the Chinese fall headlong into the propaganda trap more easily than people in the west, but you are wrong in your assumption that this isn't understood by westerners.

It is a great source of frustration to acknowledge (during recent student accusations) that bias exists in all media, only to be met with puzzled faces when I suggest that China Daily and CCTV might not be paragons of objectivity either.

Oh I'm sure most Chinese understand full well that the domestic media is not exactly the paragon of "truthiness". If anything can be used to describe the Chinese weltanschauung it would be unrelenting cynicism. Everyone is looking out for numero uno and anything is allowable to get ahead. (Mis)information is a weapon to be employed for advantage and that so many Chinese feel that the West is employing it as such is because subconsciouslly they realize that the Chinese government does the same. Just to give you an example of how cynical the Chinese are, during the "Accord Girl" controversy, some people actually believed that the woman was a plant by rival auto manufacturers as part of a psy-ops campaign against Honda motors. So the response towards the coverage of the Tibet/Olympics issue is not unsurprising, it is simply that most of the West has failed to realize the shifts in Chinese outlook following the 90's. During the 1980's if Radio Free Asia had broadcasted that Deng Xiaoping was actually a mutant space alien masquerading as Deng Xiaoping, quite a few Chinese would probably have believed.

What Americans (or Frank in particular) do not recognize is not that the Chinese are very easy to indoctrinate but rather that the Communist Party has been more successful than not at including itself as a critical element of Chinese society. The Party is the State, and the State is the sum of the People. Thus any attacks on the Party is an attack on the Chinese people. This doesn't always work, particularly when Chinese themselves are assailing the Party, but it does when foreigners who aren't too picky about separating the Party from the State (as indeed the Communists themselves are wont to do) begin criticizing.

The really scary thing isn't the people who blindly support the government, it's the people who think the government is too weak and that what they need is a government that will crush the Tibetans and kick out all unfriendly foreigners without a care for what anyone else thinks.

I agree with the point about cynicism; I mean, it's good to be critical, but cynicism in China applies not just to government, but interpersonal relationships. It's tragic that nobody feels they can afford to trust anybody. It has been painful for  me to see how my essentially sweet-natured wife has had her relations with people poisoned by growing up in China. Life in the US seems to be helping her get past this a little, but as soon as other Chinese are involved, the same old complications come into play.

I still have to explain to people in San Francisco that China is not a Communist nation anymore, so it hardly surprises me that people are clueless about how the Chinese government has managed the nation.

All said and done about Chinese government support, playing with nationalistic sentiment is always a double-edge sword in the long-run.

The nationalist sentiment is growing day by day, and is spreading by SMS message (boycott Carrefour!) and MSN Messenger (I <heart> China!) to name but two media.

As a laowai in China, I'm getting nervous.

I always find it interesting how we each imagine _ourselves_ to be capable of holding in a number of conflicting ideas at the same time, but then have so much trouble imagining _others_ with that ability.

So it is with this discussion on the thoughts of "educated young Chinese".

Who can fault the clear-eyed on-point criticism of the government one encounters in anything beyond a superficial conversation with "educated young Chinese"? Certainly not anyone paying the slightest attention.

And yet who can deny that exactly the same on-point criticisms _made by foreigners_ will fill your "educated young Chinese" person with a roiling mass of conflicting emotions, some ugly? Again, certainly not anyone who has spent any time at all in China abusing long-suffering "educated young Chinese" with their appalling Chinese.

But maybe that last _is_ just me!

In my experience the above paragraphs can be applied to the "educated young people" of any nation on earth.

Hello! Knock knock!

Has it ever come to your "grown-up" and "self-rightious" minds that, besides the two poles of pro-western or pro-establishment, Chinese youth are capable of independent thinking of their own?

Does being "liberal-leaning" necessarily mean they have to be blindly "western-leaning" and readily accept some of the overwhelmingly ignorant or hostile projections about China?

Or does being critical or upset about the western slandering necessarily mean that they're "brainwashed" by their government?

Has it ever come to you that in terms of "brainwashing" power western media is lightyears ahead of the Chinese?

Can they not have the brain to come to the right conclusion that this is no longer about Tibet or Xinjiang or Taiwan or Sudan or whatever?  

Can they not be pissed off by the imbecile behaviours of those from a society which they used to admire and respect?

And ... can it not be toleranted if some of them run berserk and become a bit childish, compared with the mass of western "liberals" indulging in a kindly of collective masturbation?

Besides "nationalism", what other labels do you guys have in your filthy pants?

Xenophobia.

I think you (and the New York Times) might add the caveat that it is the urban, middle-class youth which tends to be supportive of the government if drawn into debates with "Western" opinions.

I have never read anything by anyone claiming to have done comprehensive research into the opinions of rural people or the urban poor.

Jcat:

I wonder what you mean by "run berserk". If you mean death threats, then no, I think it cannot be tolerated.

If you mean peaceful protest and swearing on the Internet, sure -you might not win any friends, but who do you think is stopping you?

(Though I bet the Chinese government is getting a bit scared about this. After all, nationalist protest contributed to anti-government protest in the May 4th movement and also the 1989 pro-democracy movement.)

PC,

Sounds like your time in  China is a complete waste anyway.  by the sounds of your comments, you've failed to really understand China and the Chinese people.  

The sms of MSN Messenger (I <heart> China!) is by all indication a frivilous and benign form of fun (and people bonding) that we proud chinese are having about this whole Tibet thing.  It's almost like a comedy escape valve for us.  You're just too dumb to get it.  Time for you to leave China, your're just wasting your time here anyway.

Honestly, I see no difference between the attitudes of the Chinese, Americans or just about any other country.

Everyone feels it is their right as a citizen to criticize their respective government, but they'll be damned if they are ready to tolerate foreigners doing the same.  Even the most ardent Bush bashers here in the United States (and right now, that makes up around 70% of the population) will get punch drunk with anger when a foreign leader or other representative attacks the presidency or tries to dictate our national policies.

You can find the same dynamic amongst most families, where parents, kids and especially siblings might argue constantly, but the moment an outside force tries to impose their opinion, everyone stands united.

Dear Mr. Moss,

I am writing with a request that I hope you can help us with.  My daughter is a sophomore in high school in the States.  She was given an assignment, which she has tried many avenues of research, but cannot seem to find the answers that she needs.  She stumbled upon your website and thought that you might be able to offer some perspective.  The assignment concerns the youth of China and their view of the United States.  If you would consider offering your opinion, please respond here on your website and she will ask the more detailed questions given to her for her assignment.

Thank you for your time - LFL

@Dave,

I think the funniest thing about that is when (for example) an American jokes about how crappy the country can be and a second later when some foreigner tries to do the same on another issue, all the Americans get pissed.

@Demerzel

I think the point I was making is that is pretty much standard operating procedure for the citizens of nearly every nation on Earth.

Now, when the chinese are not so much communists any more, the rest of the world wonders what they are. As a factory owner in China you do not need to consider strikes, they are illegal, not the enivronment, nobody cares, and the taxes are low. This seems like a capitalist dream, at least some capitalists' dream. However, during the years of fascism in Europe 1930-1945 in Germany, many of these things were the same, so perhaps the chinese have become fascists? Methodical and careful indoctrination can cause this. This may also explain why they defend the chinese government even when there are blatant human rights violations, if it is said to be to protect the state.