Imagethief

The logo looks like something CNN would cook up at the dawn of a new military campaign, but this time

A major nationwide web portal stooping to this sort of behavior. Says a helluva lot about the mentality of the Chinese as whole, really. Pathetic.

I think 开炮 means "fire a cannon," "launch a salvo," "attack," etc.  (It's also a slang term for masturbation, but I assume that's not what they mean.)

I'd translate the slogan as:

Rise up indignantly to protest the demonization of the Tibet Incident!

Chinese netizens open fire to CNN and other Western media!

And my advice is not to read too much into it...

PingBack from http://site-toolkit.com/2008/04/21/sinacoms-anti-cnn-imagery-is-violent/

愤起 is not a contraction for "愤青起来".It has some meaning like angrily stand up and strike back.

愤青 doesn't  mean angry youth , it means a group of young people who love their country, but disagree with current politics and government policy.

I am Chinese, I come here often cause your articles seems interesting, I can't say the outsiders are all objective, politics is always entertainment, this is some Chinese way of being stupid ,and of course ,there are different ways of being stupid in other country .

@windswing

> And my advice is not to read too much into it...

Because...?

PingBack from http://www.27.infomedion.com/2008/04/21/sinacoms-anti-cnn-imagery-is-violent/

wulong,

Main reasons are as follows

1. As you probably know, "open fire to sb" is a set phrase and figure of speech in Chinese that is not necessarily a literal call for violence as some may fear. It is actually a call for a verbal/virtual campaign to be launched against CNN in this context.

2. On the upper left hand corner, there are three more Chinese characters that says "Sharp Topic", which further explains my first point.

3. Chinese youth and Chinese people as a whole nowadays hold views pretty much as diverse as it is in the West. Widespread anger at CNN and the West - Yes, collective resolve to be violent - No.

开炮 simply means "open fire".

Looks like a good red arm band design.  People should make some money on this.  Any IP problems ?

Should 愤起 be 奋起？愤起 don't seem to ring any bells, while 奋起 in my Chinese English dictionary says "rise with force and spirit", for example 奋起抗敌，奋起自卫，奋起直追。

愤起and奋起, pronounce in the same way ,but has a little difference , "愤起" has some meaning of "angry" , as in "愤怒", means very angry.

well ,"奋起" absolutely not.

This post turn out to be a discussion about translation.

Note to Chinese propaganda machine:  If the translation "open fire" is not to be taken literally, you might want to consider dropping the bullet holes from the CNN logo.

This banner might as well have been created by Al-Quada, because that's how the typical Western news media is going to spin it.

Which, no doubt, will cause the Chinese to become offended all over again and demand another apology.

Which, will no doubt, push their image even lower internationally.

And so on and so on until China grows a thicker skin and learns how to interact like an adult on the world political stage.

"Fire at something/someone" is probably a standard figure of speech in every language.

Since we're talking about this: Recently there has to been a lot of shock (real or pretended, I don't want to assume) by the Western media over the "Culture Revolution style language" by the Chinese authorities on Tibet. No doubt it's quite stupid to use that sort of language, but no more stupid than all those Western journalists using literal translations to dramatize it.

Figure of speech sounds bad in any language if taken literally. Yesterday Clinton called Obama "slash and burn" - it she accusing him of being a violent arsonist? Come on, people. And since most of those wire reporters who's being doing those translation actually speak pretty decent Chinese, I do consider the whole dramatization an intentional "daemonization".

@wgj

When Clinton called Obama "slash and burn", the words did not come complete with an image of Obama holding a knife in one hand and a lit torch in the other.

This banner, on the other hand, enhanced the words "open fire" with a bullet riddled CNN logo.  That makes it a hell of a lot harder to pass off as a figure of speech.

Well it may be rather convenient for Sina to actively hit out at a potential competitor. I know it may sound rather ridiculous now to consider CNN a competitor to Sina in China, it still probably doesn't hurt for Sina to do so. In any case tho, media stooping to the lowest denominator isn't exactly a new development, whether in China or for that matter, most places around the world.

the great thing about the internet is once you come across things like this you can just click onto the BBC website and listen to the Goon Show... more intelligent than Xinhua and less painful than slapping your head.

@Dave:

You're right, but then again, Sina isn't an official mouthpiece of the Chinese government, either, is it?

This is more like Huffington Post illustrating Clinton's "slash and burn" "with an image of Obama holding a knife in one hand and a lit torch in the other" - which is exactly the kind of graphical stunt HuffPost pulls on a daily basis.

@Peter:

How much more and how much less? :)

Will,

Not that this matters a great deal, but since we are at it - if I'm translating "blast" back into Chinese, I'd use the term “猛轰”-- much stronger than “开炮”or "open fire". I'll stick to "open fire"...

Also I'd like to reiterate my advice not to read too much into it, reasons of which have been given in my response above to wulong's question.

The graphic of the bullet holes should probably be interpreted in a similar vein: bad taste - perhaps, call for violence, no.

[Deleted by the editor. Yes, we get rid of pointlessly hostile anti-Chinese comments as well as anti-Western ones.]

I think that the more China's official mouthpieces attack "the perfidy of the western media" (in some respects and instances at least being probably not that far off the mark) and the more the "western media" attacks the  censorship and government propaganda system of the Chinese media (dead on) the better all this is going to be for all those people throughout our happy planet (whatever their nationality) who would like to be able to (eventually) obtain balanced, fair, truthful and relevant (to the key issues which either the world or their particular country faces) information.

Probably the main issue regarding all this now nearly inevitable historical process (this kind of a clash, (of civilizations?) (or maybe lack thereof)  and particularly in the age of the internet,  is nearly inevitable)....  is how to have  it produce light and motion instead of heat and smoke.  

At the moment it seems however to be producing substantially more of the latter than of the former and getting people to "take sides" which is just another way of saying "persisting  in their pre-conceived and un-analyzed points of views inculcated consciously or unconsciously by their respective media (and educational and academic and etc.) systems.  

It will be particularly interesting to see just how the New York Times is now going to provide policy advice in Public Relations to the Chinese government, and precisely what kind of advice.

My own strategy to trying to obtain half way valid information when I am not present and able to witness events directly and first hand (which like for most people is most of the time)  for years has been to "triangulate".  That is to try to arrive at the facts and the best theories to explain those facts by listening to as many sources as I have the time to listen to or read.   (much as what happens in a court of law (or in the entire realm of science)  where -at least in some countries- both the prosecution and the defense can put forward their arguments and facts) .  

In recent years Internet sources (of all kinds) have dramatically increased the amount of information available and the amount of information one needs to sift through and try to asses. (while the rest of one's life of course still needs to go on)

In my opinion one other such source that recently has become fairly mainstream and that is interesting and often provides not only additional information and interpretation but also a more grass-roots and  "real world or real people"  coverage ...and which has not been mentioned here yet as far as I can see,   is Al Jazeera in English.  (and for those of you who do not know it....it is NOT a Bin-Ladenist outfit)

Which brings me to one final point about "the perfidity".   At the moment the world is focusing a great deal (and justly so) on China's ongoing refusal to even talk to the Dalai Lama about Tibet.  It may also be instructive to note however (though it receives much less attention in the Western media) the fact that it was only a couple of days ago that a senior figure (Jimmy Carter) actually bothered to go and talk to the democratically elected government (Hamas) of the Palestinian people.

Is the predicament of the Palestinian that much less significant

than that of the Tibetans?  (moreover they even - urged by the West -held an election whose results were then officially ignored by both the U.S. and the E.U)....

But for some reason the Western media doesn't seem to need much policy advice on the optimal PR strategies regarding the coverage of that particular point.  It is simply mute.

PingBack from http://www.pandapassport.com/chinese-internet/youku-loves-china-sina-cnn/

Hey Xu Zhu Long!....(or whatever your real name and identity is)...really nice to hear that you are back once again elsewhere on these very same airwaves.... you ignoramus turkey!  We need jerks like you to keep  these debates alive but it would be useful if once in a while (when you are not too busy just uttering nonsense) if you actually contributed an idea or two. Or since it's obvious you don't have any yourself maybe some of your misguided collaborators could suggest some 2 U.   All the very best....your buddy the "pathetic fool".....(and by the way  it's of course really great to hear an authentic Chinese like yourself ....coming to the defense of Fox Channel and etc. etc.) (you're not only ignorant you're also dumb)

@ will

I just wanted to say to you that I have changed my mind about our good  buddy Xu Zhi Long, I don't think you should ban him from this website  you should let him (or her)  continue to do what he has been doing all along under the same name.  Otherwise he is certain to re appear under another name.  I don't think he is Chinese at all;  he is someone who either is himself (or represents the interests of)  some reactionary U.S. positions and is pretending to be -at some points a Chinese man, and at other times a Chinese woman mainly for the purpose of disrupting and diverting any honest discussion and interjecting insults and reactionary points of view. (at times seemingly Chinese and at times seemingly American)  I am quite sure you have had these kinds of provocateurs appear in your threads before.  I am relatively new to reading and to contributing to these sorts of blogs or threads,  but this particular character is so stupid at his own game that it became transparent in just  a couple of days even to a novice like me.  regards

@ "Xu Zhi Long"

...got your number buddy, game's up

I could not help but think that most people on this blog are not experts on Tibetan issues, including Will (sorry Will if you feel slighted. This website says you are a PR professional).

For people who are genuinely and seriously interested in the Tibetan issues, please do some study and inform yourself sufficiently to form your opinion. To form opinion without doing own homework is to me lazy, reckless and irresponsible, particularly when the Tibetan issues have the potential to escalate into destabilizing China and thus the world. A simple Google search on Tibet will yield enough information from  experts on Tibetan issues for you to check the extent of the correctness of your opinion that you may hold until then. Of course you may not agree with the experts and the experts may not agree amongst themselves on the same issues. This just goes to show that the Tibetan issues are so complexed that the experts could not agree on solutions, much less for non-experts like you and me to think or claim we know the truths. I tend to agree with what Nassim Nicholas Taleb's analysis in his book "Fooled by Randomness" that people just do not know how much they do not know. I urge you to read this book and you will realised what suckers we human  are.

For a start, here is a link to

"The Center For Research on Tibet" for study by the authoritative Tibetan experts

http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/CollectedArticles.htm

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

and some more

http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&q=tibet+myth&btnG=Search&meta=

or do more search youselves

@ will

Thanks for this  second response on your part on this particular subject or point.   I more or less agree with you. (and more "more" than "less")  And since you appear to be a reasonable person....please also rest assured that I am not personally provoked or bothered,  but I also have no qualms about exposing a turkey when I see one and making it marginally more difficult for him (or her, or it)  to operate.  

It's not that hard to see through these sorts of people and to (appropriately) expose them even though I am sure this won't prevent them from continuing or from simply resurfacing under other brand new fake identities. (again thanks and regards)

@sgtsk

I agree with you that the Tibetan issue is very complex.  And I also agree with you that most people on this blog (or anywhere else for that matter) are not real experts on the issue.  Not to mention that if you even asked the Dalai Lama himself about the specific history and details of the issue and then you asked Mr. Hu Jin Tao both of whom are probably pretty well informed about it....you would hear very different opinions and expertise about some of the very same underlying facts. (or slightly different sets of facts but with great differences in interpretation and significance)

Many issues in the world have the very same characteristics.

(I would dare say, most)   But this does not prevent people from having "gut feelings" (right or wrong) or "incomplete and partial opinions"  or "partial expertise"  about them.  (as wrong or as correct as some of these "feelings", "opinions" or even "expertise"  ultimately might prove to be either empirically or morally)  

But generally speaking it is much better to let people voice whatever it is that they may happen to think or believe at any given moment.....rather than telling them that they simply can't think or say  "X"  because someone else thinks Y is  true.   In democracies (with all the imperfections which democracies undoubtedly have) it is considered best to allow free expression.  

Not only as a matter of personal freedom and ethics, but also because it is assumed  that in due course this will bring us closer to whatever the best (and in moral matters also the fairest)  truth which is knowable or understandable...actually is.

In elementary philosophy there is a difference between the "truth",  "belief" and "knowledge" that may exist regarding any proposition  (though I am NOT an expert in philosophy either) and it is only through study and discussion that movement from belief to truth (or towards at least a better grounded belief) can be achieved.    

One of the most unambiguously successful enterprises ever undertaken by humanity over the several past millenia (Science) (and incidentally both in China, the West, and the Islamic world and etc. etc.)  certainly operates that way.  Which is why we have an Internet and websites and etc. etc.  

If someone had said to someone else a century ago that they couldn't think and talk about electricity because they didn't think it existed....we would still be yodling across the valleys instead...

Free speech and discussion are the only instruments humanity really has to cooperate, understand and move forward peacefully.  We are lucky that we have been endowed with language.  Let's not do away with it ourselves!  And now we also have the good fortune of being able to share our ideas (right or wrong)  on webistes such as this one.

PingBack from http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/04/24/consequences-of-the-communist-partys-reaction-to-the-314-tibet-uprising.html

I just heard on the BBC that the government of China has agreed to speak with representatives of the Dalai Lama.   This is certainly a step in the right direction. Though it is a pity that all that has already happened.... first had to happen. It would have been much better had the Government of China done so willingly (even proactively by its own initiative) and from the very outset (i.e. well before the events of March 14th in Lhasa)  

Without people who oppose each other (for whatever reasons or beliefs) speaking to one another no progress (or even basic understanding) is ever going to take place.  Of course it does not mean that by speaking progress or even just basic mutual understanding WILL automatically result or that political interests can be reconciled,  but at least there can be some hope.  Again this is why free speech (and dialogue) are always better than silencing people or remaining in one's own entrenched positions,   and just ratcheting up one's own side propaganda or other means of coercion or "convincing".    (no matter how "right" one's own beliefs and convictions may appear to be to the respective parties)  

And so without even claiming to be an expert on the Tibet question (at all) I am happy to see that two opposing sides will now be talking.   And undoubtedly they will both start by throwing a bunch of "objective historical facts" at each other but eventually perhaps they'll also start to listen to the other side and to how the other side views its own interpretation of those same facts.   (a great potential reciprocal learning experience without doubt)

And of course without impugning ex ante the intentions of the Chinese government one also can only hope that they intend to talk seriously and authentically to the other side and not only to try to score some propaganda points in the West or save the Olympics.  (which I think they have figured out will go down the tubes if they keep to the same political line of non-talking)  (i.e. demonstrating that they are motivated not only instrumentally but by an authentic desire to talk and understand and to try to resolve some of the ssues - something which will benefit not only the people of Tibet but the Chinese people too. (in fact first and foremost the Chinese people both inside and outside Tibet,  since the Tibet issue is also emblematic of other internal problems of a similar or related type in China)

China has already helped bring about a great deal of economic and social development in Tibet,  which would have been quite unlikely to occur without its involvement.  It is now time to also bring in cultural freedom and development which is something very difficult to achieve without some measure of genuine cultural autonomy.  Tibetans (like all other peoples) will show themselves to be quite capable of choosing what they prefer to do as they view their own evolving interests.  But maybe they also should be able to start to open some small shops of their own in Lhasa, instead of...as it is being reported....most of the small business ownership being in

Chinese hands?  

....and by saying the above I hope I also have shown that it is not very difficult even for someone who knew hardly anything about Tibet (me) to begin to learn something about it in a relatively short period of time provided one actually takes a bit of time to read and study and listen...instead of just voicing ill thought through prejudices for whichever side.....

Perhaps the people getting doctorates at the University of Nebraska (or maybe their professors and thesis advisors)  (please see their  website posted further above)  who encourage that China now be promptly "duly embarassed" (under their higher order caption "learn when it's easy" )  for the "colonial grab that Tibet represents" are much more politically savy than I am.  

But I have seen enough attempts during my own lifetime for someone or another to try to embarass, coerce, force, one-up, or "put to shame" and and etc. somebody else.....(maybe I am old enough to remember those happy folks and exchanges like between Andrei Gromyko and Henry Kissinger and other such "top experts" at what the French aptly call "la politique politicienne"  to either try to force or compel our outmaneuver their opponent  to "learn" so that I have come to believe (perhaps extremely naively) that it is much better for someone to actually try to sit down and talk to one's opponents.  

(often this also leads to the realization that they weren't one's opponents at all)

And if this hasn't been the norm in the past, then maybe it is time that it begin to happen in the future?  (notwithstanding Mr. Niccolo Macchiavelli, Bismarck and all other cleverer-than-thou "realpolitik" types some of whom wrote at the beginning of the 16th century when there were neither nuclear weapons nor an impending environmental catastrophe, nor 6.3 billion people -soon probably all to begin to starve- on the planet) (as their wise leaders continue to try to "one up" each other)

That is try instead  just to sit down and talk, as  Jimmy Carter recently has done with Hamas and the clearly terrorist Government of Syria.  (particularly when five days later it was suddenly "discovered" that the North Koreans were most definitely building a nuclear reactor there until the wise and prescient Israelis took it out)....(what interesting timing and coincidences once again)

 Had any Western leaders actually tried to talk seriously to the Chinese leadership about sitting down with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the past?  If they did they certainly have kept their efforts pretty quiet.  (although some are undoubtedly going to try to "seize the moment" to try to trumpet all of their earlier noble efforts on behalf of Tibet and its people)

Or have they all been just too busy trying to promote their own country's commercial interests either with or in China? (not giving a damn about the Tibetan people until it became convenient or politically useful)

And incidentally I have no doubt that  the really Foxy types in the United States will consider Jimmy Carter's outrageous act of simply talking to the opponents of the United States.....(if opponents indeed they are)  not only something extremely naive, but even capitulation and treason (even if coming from an ex President of the United  States) (which might be just one reason why Jimmy Carter was awarded a Nobel prize for peace whereas the University of Nebraska folks, let alone the much more Foxy folks than them,  in the U.S. are slightly unlikely to ever be awarded one)....(those damned liberal and half commie Norwegians!)

Though I am certainly NOT trying to imply that the people at the University of Nebraska are of the same ilk as those at Fox since whatever one may think of their positions or recommendations at least they seem to be honest and sane and arguing their positions legitimately and with some facts and internal logic.  (i.e. they probably have listened to Mr. O"Reilly and therefore are now in the "no spin" zone)....

Unfortunately it IS also true that sometimes it is only by playing hard ball and by being politically clever and outsmarting one's opponents is necessary (is that what the Dalai Lama has just done wittingly or unwittingly,  or were the events of March 14th only purely by coincidence just a few months before the Olympic games?)    

But let's those of us who are students or observers of these processes try to glorify these practices just a  bit less rather than more...let's also try to find some better ways.  (if we are not "not too young" or are perhaps  sill "young enough")

Hi,

Found one more interesting article and also another Tibetan issues related website

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/14/8287/

http://journeyeast.tripod.com/tibet.html

...the above websites add more useful grist for the mill.  Let me see if I can add one other perspective:

I think there are three or four basic questions that perhaps need to be better thought through, empirically researched and then (only then) answered:  

i) are there or are there not (serious) injustices existing,  or being committed in Tibet?  

ii) and if there are, have  those injustices been (or are they presently being) properly and adequately addressed by the Chinese government through its past and present policies there?  

iii) there are of course beyond the shadow of a doubt lots of other injustices (present or historical) in existence or still being committed in countless other places and contexts (as the common dreams article lists and points out)

iv) and there is also no doubt whatsoever that those screaming the loudest about doing something about injustices by China in Tibet (unless of course empirical and relatively objective field investigations were to reveal that there are absolutely none there and everything is completely honkey-dorey for all Tibetans)  are some of the very same people and countries and governments who are not doing anything at all about the injustices which THEY committed or are still committing (or are even intensifying as they engage in ongoing exercises in deception to pretend they are doing otherwise)

So perhaps there should be "fair and balanced reporting" about the various injustices that exist in various places and contexts in the world with equal time and focus for and upon them all?  

But hopefully that won't end up meaning that any of them should be completely ignored? (though of course it's also true that many - if not most- in fact typically have been and still are)

That is,  to now try to take a more concrete example, I  hope that just because crimes are being committed against Palestinians by Israel and the United States (as they have been for decades)  that this then doesn't have to mean that others....(the Chinese in Tibet,  or the Russians in Chechnya, or whomever) should be allowed "equal time for equal (or even much lesser) crimes"

at least this is what at first comes to my own mind after looking through the above additional websites

@ will

Please have a look at the comment just above posted by "max jones".  

Of course,  I may well be an asshole.    ("I'll report, you decide" just to borrow an apt Foxy analogy)  but the person who posted the comment about me above under my name but is NOT me,  is a one hundred times bigger ass hole than I ever could hope to be or ever become.  

And he (or the group he represents) are also -quite apart from being provocateurs- desperate cowards.  They don't know how to argue the pros and cons of any point of view or position, they only know how to insult and express their assorted prejudices (and they have many) and now they've been caught out and barred.  

So they will reappear not only under other brand new fake names (as I had predicted)  but now are also trying to impersonate some of the other "slightly more honest and substantive contributors"  to this thread, e.g. me.   Of course this will never "work" (but it won't keep them from trying)

Which is in fact something good to take note of (their desperation) and the resorting to impersonating others who can of course so easily expose them.    I for one will of course be sure to expose each and every comment posted under my own name which has not been made by me.  

And the impersonators are so stupid that I am quite confident they will not ever convince anyone who is reading that they are really me if they write more than half an insulting sentence.

thanks for taking note of this and regards

(and it's really interesting and amusing to watch all of these antics and "fun and games", there are some great people out there and also some great jerks)

regards,

"Ass-hole" Max Jones

@ sgtsk

I would like to respond to you a second time now,  because (unlike the ignorant turkeys a bit further above) I think you have made a number of good and interesting contributions to this thread and also have provided some  useful additional websites for those others among us who are reading it, who may wish to read more about Tibet.  (and not only about Tibet and China but also about a number of other interesting issues and matters on those very same websites that you kindly provided)

And I also happen to think that it is much more interesting and also worthwhile if we comment one another's comments as clearly as we are able to do,   rather than just posting a succession of ill considered opinions one after the other.  (i.e. try to raise the standard and raise the bar a bit)  

I would like to comment a second time what you had said earlier a bit further above,  which I am now reproducing below for the easier reference of whomever might be interested in following this.  

You had written, and I quote:

"For people who are genuinely and seriously interested in the Tibetan issues, please do some study and inform yourself sufficiently to form your opinion. To form opinion without doing own homework is to me lazy, reckless and irresponsible, particularly when the Tibetan issues have the potential to escalate into destabilizing China and thus the world. A simple Google search on Tibet will yield enough information from  experts on Tibetan issues for you to check the extent of the correctness of your opinion that you may hold until then. Of course you may not agree with the experts and the experts may not agree amongst themselves on the same issues. This just goes to show that the Tibetan issues are so complexed that the experts could not agree on solutions, much less for non-experts like you and me to think or claim we know the truths. I tend to agree with what Nassim Nicholas Taleb's analysis in his book "Fooled by Randomness" that people just do not know how much they do not know. I urge you to read this book and you will realised what suckers we human  are"

Here is my response to the preceding:

i) although it is in one sense true that it is "lazy, reckless and irresponsible" to express opinions (about Tibet and also about a large number of other  important (or potentially very important) political and social issues,  it is also true that people all over the world  continually form and express opinions of all sorts and kinds ALL of the time and WITHOUT ever doing their homework in any systematic way.  For instance someone may like or not like a particular presidential candidate in one race or another,  without ever bothering to look up even that person's available voting record;  which is a matter of public record and now also very easy to access.

And there also are all sorts of tacit social "theories" out there whereby people under their influence think that looking up the facts about someone's voting record is irrelevant anyway because one can just "feel" that so and so is a good guy or a good gal for the job because of how they look, or dress, or act or carry themselves,  or whether they are the B. word or not as now is being alleged about Mrs. Clinton.  

And this of course also makes all these people easier prey for the Foxy Folks whose main business is to create false opinions and prejudice in the population to serve their and their owners political ends

ii) And I also would like to add (but only as a hypothesis though) that unfortunately no matter how much research, reading, studying, personal investigation and etc. etc. anyone actually does,  in the end their resulting opinions will always end up being founded on imperfect, incomplete and interpreted  information and hence somewhat off any "absolute" mark of "correctness". (either empirical or moral)

Although this isn't to try to say that people should not try to become  slightly better informed and thereby also raise their own (and others')  standards of knowledge and discussion.

(partial experts talking to partial experts is probably always better than ignoramuses talking to ignoramuses)

iii)  And another relevant question that I think is or probably important is this:....what to do with the given fact or well known reality that most people's views and positions are indeed opinions (and as such can only ever match very partially the ultimate empirical and moral realities).

That is, what implications might this have for "democratic systems" as well as for countries that are centrally controlled or orchestrated such as China?  (how might each fail and why?  ....and I also would argue, .... are both failing in different ways and to different extents)

And since "expertise" is itself an ill defined and not easily clearly definable and specifiabel notion and since in any case we are never going to have a world made up only of experts (in anything) and partially informed (ignorant?)  people will continue to be the majority of citizens and voters and will continue  voice their opinions....even if they may be half-baked which I think nearly by necessity they typically must be ....

that is, most people will never have either the time or the desire to convert themselves into experts on all the issues that face them or their country and this also may well be why we are in some ways in such a sorry state.   A "state" of things which Plato already described over 2000 years ago in his well known "Plato's Cave story" in which people sit in the dark in a cave and try to figure out what's going on outside based on the projected shadows which they can half see.

And I also would add this:  In the physical and natural sciences theories are continually being put forth, refined and honed.  (Einstein later improved on Newtonian mechanics although the latter still remained valid and accurate under certain conditions)

But in the social sciences or the social domains or areas  (including political science, as well as psychology, sociology, anthropology and etc.) things are not quite the same.  A given theory or explanation or an hypothesis may be true or valid during a given historical period in particular contexts but no longer be seen to be true or all that applicable during another.  

And that is because social realities (including big ones such as the whole of the " People's Republic of China"or "The United States of America")  are continually moving targets as they travel through history.  (The U.S. is not the same today as it was at the time of Thomas Jefferson and neither is China much like what it was in the early days of Mao Tse Tung)  Social realities are continually evolving, and whether their participants wish them to evolve or not.  (it is inevitable and always has occurred throughout all of recorded history)

Whereas physical realities tend to stay the same.  If Martians were studying physics, they would discover the very same  laws of physics (for instance E = Mc 2) as we have discovered right here on Earth, or at least in due course the two would converge.   Whereas it's quite apparent that Chinese and Westerners may "discover" very different political and social "laws" and realities (real or preferred)  about themselves and at the very same time regarding not only Tibet, but China overall,  as well as about all sorts of other political issues and matters.  

iv) And let me now try conclude by putting in what is undoubtedly a pure opinion from me .....(and which like any other opinion may be right or may be wrong or a bit of each)  and it is this:  I really do not think that this Tibet and Olympic torch issue is very likely to destabilize China and through it,  the whole world.  (as you suggest might be a risk)

What I think it is much more much more likely to end up doing is simply to stir up and give more voice to some "anti Chinese System as it presently operates" (or anti Chinese Government) (not anti-Chinese people)  sentiment that already existed just under the surface anyway in the West, and this simply because of the perceived (correctly or incorrectly) general lack of human rights and political freedoms in the country.  

Tibet is only one example of that general phenomenon -although an important one-  whether the phenomenon is itself a valid perception or interpretation or not'.  That is,  whether it's mainly true (and important) or whether it isn't and is just another ill founded negative opinion on the part of certain people in the West' ....(which I personally happen to think it is NOT,  even though I believe certain circles in the West are instrumentalizing it and trying to stir it up for their own misguided political reasons and purposes)  

And so although:  a) it is not all that likely that anything is going to improve in Tibet as a result of any of this....(assuming for a moment that there is something seriously wrong to begin with)  and b) although it also may well be that certain Western political forces are indeed instrumentalizing the Dalai Lama and the Tibet issue for their own political purposes of  broader anti-Chinese government actions and sentiment.... that is, although all the above may well be true,  it is also true that it is another push (and with the right timing) to get things to move a little bit inside China so that it doesn't become a major world power without first at least a minimum of internal and external democratization.

As I have said before, China desperately wanted to get these Olympics and now they've got them, both for the better and for the worse....these Olympic games will be a step in the very slow and painful (if they want to make it painful)  eventual democratization of China.....which I believe - although again this is only an opinion subject to everything I already have said above about opinions-  is historically inevitable.  Although perhaps only in the so called "longer term" ...which could be 10 years, or maybe 100 or 200.  

Though, yet again, as I also have said before within this thread  IF we all manage to even survive as a planetary human society and species for that long.  Something which given the way we are going our true "experts" don't give us more than a 50% chance of doing.

regards

You paid reactionary turkeys were wrong yet again....it took me more than 2 minutes to go and "masturbate" and formulate my next comment......(you are so ignorant that you don't even know how to spell the word)  And by the way (you aren't the only ones capable of making "predictions" and what you are going to do or say next  is also much more predictable than what I might ever do or say next simply because it is invariably always the same stuff...you now have yet again re-appeared trying to falsely impersonate me because since you cannot refute (or even bother to refute) anything I (or anyone else half way reasonable) says,  you now need to resort to hoping to confuse the other readers by pretending to be me,  or you hope to either prevent or try to ridicule or make more difficult my own contributions to this thread.  

But  what you are doing in fact is making it much much easier to prove my earlier point that there are provocateurs and impostors ALSO writing on this thread...(apart from all the honest people and contributors)

As I told you before no matter how often you do this it's not going to work.  And  in fact the more you do it....the more apparent and transparent your tactics will become.  

And so let me just say to anyone reading this thread who is interested in knowing whether it is indeed me or the people who are now writing under my name and ARE NOT me,  please note that any remark that has no substance or ideas in it and is merely an insult was NOT written by me.  

And so to the desperate worthless fascist scumbags who are now trying to impersonate me....."happy continuing masturbations"!

regards,

Max Jones

Someone who goes by the name "sgtsk" on this thread (a serious contributor unlike the low brow paid provocateurs who among all their other earlier countless  expressions of  prejudice, ignorance, insult, racism and nazi-ism recently also have seen fit to try to impersonate me....see further above) earlier had provided the website and link below to a recent "Common Dreams" article about the issues we have been discussing on this thread.

I have just finished reading that particular article and I think it is an interesting and very  well argued piece....(whether one agrees with its substance or conclusions or not)

And so just in case any readers of the thread may have missed this link before,  it might be worthwhile having a look at it now. Here it is once again.  (and once again thanks to "sgtsk")  

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/14/8287/

@ will

Please note that some of the people (fascist provocateurs) (and probably also paid to do what they are doing) and who earlier were appearing on this thread under other fake identities are now writing comments under my name.  They are trying to confuse readers and also prevent me from contributing and I have already exposed them above.  And so please also note that any comments that genuinely come from me will always be substantive, polite and substantiated and reasonably argued.   You may delete any comments presumably coming from "Max Jones" which are insults, slanders and etc etc.....(whether these are directed at others, the issues, or at myself)....since they were not written by me. (that is,  I do not wish to start writing under another name myself since that plays into the game played by those particular scumbags)  many  thanks and regards,

Max Jones

@ Will

Many thanks Will, I am very glad that you are well aware of this whole area and field of monkey business and its related practices both  at beginner's level and at advanced levels.   I may or I may not end up registering later on,  as you suggest,  (I want to think about it a bit more first)  because although I do instinctively trust you and your blog / thread,  I am generally speaking a very wary and careful person.

And the fact that you may be personally trustworthy doesn't mean that some super hacks and giant gobble-gobbling turkeys somewhere around the planet  (either right on the outskirts of Beijing or in far away tranquil and bucolic Langley Virginia) (or their assorted lesser directly or indirectly related ilks and fellow travelers) have not hacked into your website or systems.  

The world is full of vicious and malicious (and most often also stupid)  people of all kinds and varieties,  and it is best not to provide them any additional info.  that could make it any easier for them to do their ongoing harm. (which is just part and parcel of their profession and official professional briefs)

But let me also say from the outset  that I am not afraid either of Chinese Nazis, or Israeli Nazis, nor also of American  (Foxy-looking and very sexy) Nazis,  for that matter....also because I know beyond any doubt that if  any of them ever bothered  to look into and find out who I actually am and what I do for a living,  they would very quickly discover and realize  that I am a totally harmless person who (for better or for worse) also has never even been (or bothered being)  politically active on any side ever during his whole entire life. (other perhaps than by just trying to calmly understand and tell the truth as he sees it  and learn more -and not allow himself to be brainwashed (by anyone) just as an average citizen,  which in fact could very well be the most dangerous political activity of them all)

And this lack of political involvement and participation on my part perhaps indeed could be a valid criticism of me, my person and my life.  (apart of course from also being an ass hole, an inveterate mental and physical masturbator, a pathetic personality,  a failed commentator and reporter,  and a hamburger flipper at Denny's...(and BTW what's wrong with working for Denny's and flipping hamburgers anyway?... and etc. etc.) ...that is ... just a few of the low brow and low quality (and even lower impact)  insults that my detractors have thus far been able to concoct and seen fit to publicly throw at me...(and let's see now if perhaps they might be able to start to come up with some slightly more substantive things to say that are also just a bit more intelligent and also less likely to just boomerang straight back at them)

Though I do admit that anyone who is willing to try to tell the truth as they see it and actually listen to others and discuss rationally and calmly and politely on the basis of reasoned argument and fact,  and who cannot easily be manipulated or provoked  and knows precisely how to respond to provocations and their related assorted baloney... IS indeed a big threat to the assorted "great powers of darkness" and would-be protectors of prejudice and ignorance,   all over the place!

...and so I do hope that  these "great powers" and "great minds"  (of darkness and fascism)  will like and appreciate  being glamorized in this particular manner and fashion and will fully  appreciate and value my preceding compliment to them...  and feel like they are in their own way -even if only very small-  very very important people!

....Even very small things can and should make very small brains happy and there is no reason not to try to bring a bit of happiness to everyone's  life  including also the lives  of those particular ignoramus scumbags (but why bother insulting them)  who definitely need even more "tender loving care" than the rest of us

....and finally,  although I am not a particularly great believer in Jesus Christ either...he did allegedly say something I definitely agree with...which is  to try to "forgive them for they know not what they do"....(that is, first kick them in the ass,  and then forgive them) or am I maybe getting that mixed up with the tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye bit? ....(which may just prove that they are also not so incompatible after all!)    

regards

Max Jones

@ will

Hi Will, the same jerks are at it yet again above.  Needless to say I didn't post the above comment.  But it's interesting how they now follow what I say so closely and feel so compelled to respond every time so promptly and regularly to all of my "hot air".  It must be starting to get so hot that it's burning their miserable asses.  And may they all go and flush themselves down some really cool toilets then,  along with all the other diarrhea whose company they love to keep and who pays their crummy salaries.  

regards,

Max

@ will (and anybody else who might still be interested in the miserable jerks a couple of postings above)

...oh yeah, and I forgot.  And what those stupid jerks above also have proven (beyond much doubt at this point)  is that the Olympic gold medal for being jerks and provocateurs goes to the American right and its paid agents whereas the Chinese government lackeys only deserve the silver medal....since it's true that the master debaters above also have now learned how to spell masturbate correctly.   (if anyone knows, they ought to, when they are not blowing farts through their mouths that is)  

...and one final thing for those very same sub-human "people" above.  Instead of keeping us all guessing  (or at least the others who read this thread since I got your number a while back and you know it)  why don't you just share with us openly exactly who you really are,  who pays your salary and most importantly just how you got to be so "free and so brave" at impersonating other people.... i.e.  like real men instead of cowards....since you obviously come from my very same beloved land of the free and home of the brave.  Or did you forget the bravery and are just some miserable two bit cowardly paid hoodlums trying to hide instead?  You are a disgrace to the United States of America and to what it stands for.  (even if the CIA is behind the Dalai Lama)  And now you can send me back another masturbatory comment from "myself"....(you worthless crummy low life scumbags)  

@ will

As I had told you earlier (at the outset of my own participation) this was the first time  I had ever participated in such a thread / blog.  I didn't quite know what to expect and it certainly has been very interesting and I have managed to learn quite a bit.  However for what I am mainly interested in (a good reasonably systematic discussion and debate among honest and reasonably knowledgeable people about well defined and bounded topics) it has started to become a bit boring and fairly quickly so.

There don't seem to be all that many substantive responses or much real discussion and debate and back and forth (not between me and other parties,  nor between the other parties among themselves)  nor much continuity of either people or the more specific topics under discussion....(at least throughout the period I have been following all of this).....people just seem to parachute in with whatever opinions (unfortunately also often biased)  they happen to have and then they disappear....and so there is very little continuity among either the participants or the specific topics being discussed.

The main "thread of continuity" that I can perceive is one of being biased and opinionated about one thing or another and popping in and out mainly either with soundbites of very short length or short paragraphs that typically are unsubstantiated or are not carefully reasoned through and argued.  (though of course this does NOT apply to everyone)

Probably this is just the way it is on such internet threads.   Which is also the reason why they can represent such a field day for provocateurs of whatever ilks and sides, as they indeed have in this particular instance too.  It's hard enough to have a meaningful, productive and half way conclusive discussion anyway and when they then start to jump in and out it becomes that much more difficult.  (which of course is also their intended role and purpose)

And their negative impact is possible precisely because since people pop in and out and appear to only know about or read whatever has just been posted and has appeared, without reading the dialogue (or lack thereof) which took place earlier anyone can then pop in and just say something stupid or provocative while also pretending  to be someone else who they are not.... and nobody will even notice or know the difference.  (or only a very few careful readers and participants)

Therefore there seems to be not much of a point in saying anything substantive or well reasoned because sound bites and short unsubstantiated opinions  are more the name of the game on this medium.  (very regrettably since I think it has much better potential than that)

Having said the above, I also think there have been some quite interesting and intelligent comments and several good contributions and other valuable and informative website references provided by various individuals, some Chinese,  some Western and some from wherever.  (as well as a very few from turkey-land)  (and I don't mean from the country whose capital is Ankara, I mean the ones one eats for thanksgiving)

And I certainly have learned something from everyone of the preceding groups.   The other aspect that has been very interesting have been the "agents provocateurs" of the United States extreme right wing (or the lower levels of the intelligence services)  who constantly rear their ugly heads on the blog / thread while of course trying as best they can to conceal their identities.  (and the fact that there is little continuity in readership or topics of course helps them to do that, that much more easily)    

These people -if the word "people" can apply to them are the very same ones who recently have started to impersonate me and pretend that they are me just to try out their assorted insults to see if they might work or not.  (they haven't so far)

They are the same people who earlier already had been exposed when they were putting out their stuff under their other fake identities, that is..... remember Xu Xhi Long or whoever that was who was sometimes pretending to be a Chinese man and sometimes a Chinese woman?   Well I am almost certain that it's the same person who is now calling himself by my own name to be able to log on to cast various aspersions.

Interestingly enough these American right low level agents are trying to pretend they are Chinese. (and now they are  using my own name as their preferred fake name and identity since presumably you also have banned them under their other original fake names and the only last resort is to come in under the name of another real contributor. Half clever, but not quite clever enough.  But in fairness to the American provocateurs this does NOT mean that there aren't also people disguising their identity and pretending to be authentic Chinese when in fact their views are mainly government propaganda.  (and I do think there is a difference between the two!)  

These kinds of fun and games have in fact all been quite interesting and valuable (perhaps the most interesting part of my own participation) and also very revealing of just what sorts of people are (also) out there.  Something to be expected on a blog that deals with the China-U.S.A. relationship and something that all honest participants also should take careful note of.  (at least the ones who will not just read only this single comment and then just "move on" to the next sound bite) (or would it be "virtual bite"?)  

And making those people's (who are basically only spoilers)   life and work just a little bit more difficult also certainly has been reasonably interesting, at least for a while.  (but in itself, it's also quite a waste of time since those people are in any case incorrigible and besides, that's the job they are being paid to do, and so they will continue doing it no matter what)

On balance I now need to ask myself why I am continuing to write on this thread.   It certainly has been interesting, I certainly have gotten something out of it, and  I certainly hope I also have contributed something useful or interesting or novel for any serious others who are out there reading and who may have taken the time to actually read and think about some of my comments (and those of others equally trying to contribute seriously)    

But I really feel like I am now starting to reach the law of diminishing returns in terms of my own interest in all of this and what it represents and what it doesn't represent for me personally and my own "value for money" (or value for time) in terms of my own participation and investment of effort relative to the benefit that might accrue to me personally. (from a purely selfish point of view)

To sum up I feel like I have learned about as much as I am likely to learn at least for a while and I also have said pretty  most of what I might have wished to say on the given topics and issues.

And of course (Will) please rest assured that I have decided to now stop contributing (at least for a while) not at all because of the harassment by those particular individuals (that particular part has been interesting and challenging and fun and I am sure would continue to be)  but simply because I feel I had joined this blog / thread to say my own two cents worth about the various issues at the various levels and to hear what others might have to say about the very same things, and  I have now pretty much accomplished both of those things.  

And so unless either the general topic changes or the sequence and the quality and substance of contributions and of the discussion starts to seem (or to be) much more stimulating to me,   I do not think the effort I have been putting in is really worth very much more of my own time.  

And I hope this does not sound in any way arrogant because it isn't meant to be, it's just the truth about how I now feel which given my own particular personal values I think is good to share.  

For your information and also for honesty's sake...(another value that I think has continuously been raped on this thread)  my own name is NOT Max Jones, although Max is indeed my first name.

I didn't think it was wise to put out my real last name (very few others do as well) and the provocateurs from the U.S. extreme right have proven me right on that score.  I am a

retired theoretical physicist in my mid-fifties and my alma mater was once Cal Tech.

That's probably either the reason or the consequence as to why I may have seemed at least on occasion to have some brains.  But my field is physics,  not political science;  nor do either political science, communications, P.R. and the intelligence and disinformation / propaganda work being practiced by some on this site interest me very much.  (although I also have certainly enjoyed my internships and postdoctoral work at Denny's and Domino's Pizza for anyone who may remember those jerks' earlier comments and can also appreciate a bit of humour)

What I am in fact much more interested in at this particular moment just in case any one out there is interested or cares (and I wouldn't blame anyone if they didn't)  is what the results of the Large Hadron Collider experiments now under design at the CERN in Geneva are going to be able to prove or disprove about super-string theory.  

And as far as Tibet or China and their respective peoples or governments are concerned I wish them both the very best of luck just as I wish the very best of luck to Palestinians, israelis and any other peoples locked into absurd conflicts mostly created and manipulated by self-interested external or internal parties.

One thing I DO firmly believe however,  is that our world has reached a very dangerous moment in world history and that some of the old paradigms and ways of approaching our differences and our common problems are flawed and will need to change (and fast) if we are to survive as a human species.  (and whether I am a bad Cassandra or a good Moses, I will let someone else decide)

I may or I may not re appear on this thread later either as myself or under some brand new and now false identity just as so many others seem to be doing under their own various false names and identities or pseudonyms.   With plenty of Chinese also pretending to be Americans and Americans pretending to be Chinese and etc. etc.  All of which seems to me like an enormous waste of time but I don't mind playing at that game too, if that's how this new (for me)  game is to be played.

In any case I would like to thank you Will for having made the opportunity of this thread and website available to everyone (and to me as well) and I send you my very best regards and the best of luck and good wishes with the continuation of your work.

Over and out

Max "Jones"

...and please also do try not to let those ass holes have the last word since  if they try to do it now under my own name, it definitely won't be me.   Once again all the very best and so long... at least for now.

@ will

..and as you can see Will those sicko ass holes who know everything while knowing nothing (they really seem to have a thing about Fox though) (and also about how other people don't know anything whereas they obviously do... while at the same trying to turn the whole thing around onto them  which also happens to be precisely the standard Fox fare) (please read carefully what they've just said above ignoring for a second all the vulgar stuff which just creates noise within their otherwise very interesting and standard message that they just crafted)  ....but as interesting as their desperate sick efforts are they are still at it (just as I said they would be) and getting more stupid and vulgar by the second as they become more exposed and even more desperate.   And this Will,  really WILL be my last comment.  (and as I said not because of those jerks who in fact I am really starting to enjoy as a source of amusement,  but for the other reasons I have just outlined for you a short time ago) ...It's up to you now to deal with those particular vulgar low level imbeciles (and by the way given what time it is now in Asia and what time it is in Europe and what time it is in the States, those jerks are almost certainly U.S. based....(notwithstanding their earlier fake Chinese names)  either that or they work at their propaganda and disinformation work 24/7)....just as I am sure you've dealt with the many others who have come before them and the many who certainly will follow them....

best regards and again over and (really) out this time....

Max

...and to those same jerks and jerk offs above:   "the reactionary Fox people have already created their own hell right here on earth because of who they are and what they do and what most honest Americans think of them.......(even if Murdoch pays them up the ass)  and so they do not have to go and burn in the hell that doesn't exist.  Let Pat Robertson and some of those other types go and burn there,  they'll be in plenty of very good faith-based company already from all of your other best buddies.  i.e. screw you, go either to hell or to heaven as you please....and good bye.

Over and out will,

Oh by the way, if u and olivia are ever in the bay area, why don't you stop by and have a glass of tea, or a cup of beer.  We can talk more about life.  C-ya

@ will

I thought I would have a last look today just to see if the vulgar sickos and professional mind-gamers (and paid U.S. intelligence agents) were going to try to have their last clever wise ass word.  (and they are, -since it's their job- see just above from the fake Max Jones)....And I will be sure to go and have a cup of diarrhea or a glass of piss (their usual fare) together with them and Olivia Newton John and any other agents of the U.S. right.  But I never go to the Bay area anymore and for their sake I would prefer to meet somewhere closer to Langley anyway.  Bye bye you turkeys and Will, -for the sake of other honest readers on this blog-  would you please remove immediately any comments by "Max Jones".  They are not mine and since those had guys started out with masturbation and then moved on to oral sex, the next time they'll be into anal sex and then into homosexual rape in prisons and etc. etc. before they finally close off with Sodom and Gomorrah.  All the best,  Max (this time real, though even if they claim that next time, delete them anyway)

@ will

...and by the way you can leave this really last posting from me too.  Their mention of "Olivia" is a veiled theat to prove to me (they did) that the computer numbers and the ISP's of contributors to this thread are easily monitored....(by them).....regs....Max

(good job guys, come over here one day and I'll be happy to have that cup of beer with ya....and you might also finally be able to get a piece)

PingBack from http://rosemary.vidsdigest.info/averageamountofmasturbationsinalifetime.html

First, Imagethief feels he owes his readers an apology. Anyone who has been with me for longer than a