Imagethief

This is a terrible move by China and a sign of the craven capitulation of whoever was responsible for this. I expect the talks to amount to nothing because the basic premises have not changed and the position of the Communisty Party is more likely to have tilted towards hardliners. The Lamaist clique in the end offers nothing but demands everything.

However, the PR element is a double edged sword. While it temporarily allows China to appear more accomodating, the face being primarily being saved is not Chinese but Western. This meeting is simply an excuse by Western governments to justify their own participation in the Olympics in light of a small but shrill and vocal Tibetan separatist agitators to point at and say "Aha! Progress is being made!". The cost to China however is the continued inadvertant legitimization of the Dalai clique and the separatist movement. It only invigours them towards further agitation and gives them the impression that they are in a position to make demands. The opposite approach is required, the separatists should be completly ignored as their power amounts to only as much as China is willing to give, which should be none at all. In otherwords, the beatings should continue until morale improves.

>In otherwords, the beatings should continue

LOLWUT

Perhaps not worded as well as it could be, but a good step on the part of the Chinese government.  I know it likely pains them to do so, but they only need to keep up the illusion of diplomacy until August 25th, when the Olympics end, then they can really drop the hammer on Tibet as the world, for the most part, will have moved on.

What has really annoyed the Chinese is the use of the Olympics torch relay to focus attention on the Tibet issue. It would be interesting to see if the DL continues to use western spokespersons such as Richard Gere to continue pressure and leverage, or will ask them to tone down their rhetoric during the talks.

If the DL tells Gere to quiet down, the Chinese government is likely to see that as a showing of good faith, and the discussions may become more substantial. If Gere and the western press continue to be involved, I can only both sides hardening their initial positions, and the talks will most likely end badly in mutual recriminations.

...I came across the following quote recently about the Dalai Lama:   "Rupert Murdoch once said, "I have heard cynics who say he's a very political old monk shuffling around in Gucci shoes" "   (It's a far cry from "His Holiness" (whatever the hell that even means in particular as distinct from "Yours or Mine")... but it also may be fully undeserved)

This quote (which probably does refer to something Mr Murdoch actually DID say at some point or another)  is interesting since coming from Rupert Murdoch.  (and for those of you who don't know who Mr. Murdoch is,   he is the media mogul who among other businesses now also owns Fox Channel)  (that beacon of Truth in the United States now also polluting ideologically worldwide)

And I suppose we shouldn't start indulging in reciprocal insults and what kinds of quotes one could conjure up about that great guy Mr. Murdoch himself ... instead:  ...maybe that he is :  "a reactionary tycoon pretending to be apolitical (and spreading hearsay) and shuffling around in Gucci shoes?"  (or open sandals, for all that it matters)

And it also would be interesting to compare this with what Mr. Murdoch might say about the Chinese government.  (though he is quite likely to say only good things or just shut up since like so many others he too is making money hand over fist out of dealing with the repressive Chinese system)

The point I am trying to make here though  is that the reciprocal slanders or insinuations really don't matter all that much.

The real burning question is however:  Is the Chinese government now prepared (it certainly wasn't before though it's now trying to pretend it had been all along)  to discuss and negotiate seriously and authentically in the true interest of the Tibetan people?  And does the Dalai Lama group (I prefer to call it a group rather than a "clique" since that's most probably just a bad rap)  represent most Tibetans and their genuine long term interests?  (and not only "culturally" but also socially, economically and politically)

My personal answer to these two rhetorical questions  is a clear and sharp NO to both.  So it's hard to see how by putting those two sides together in one room the true interests of the Tibetan people are going to emerge out the other side... after the meeting.   (I would much rather see the Swedish right wing and the Swedish left wing discussing how best their interests could be served)

That is one variant of social democracy discussing with another variant about what might be best,  rather than a religious-feudal ideology pitted against a national socialist capitalist-colonialist one.  

If I were a young Tibetan looking at the road ahead and the year 2030 or 2040  (when we'll all be lucky if we are even still alive after the coming environmental and food catastrophes have duly played out)   (and of course I am not a young Tibetan)...I would want neither the Dalai Lama nor the Chinese Government "negotiating" for me or on my behalf about what they in their misguided opinions may think are my authentic best interests in the long term and how to ensure them or bring them about.    i.e. I would rather they both just disappeared, if only a magic act were possible.

And I am definitely also not a New Age sort of character from the woods of Oregon or California and so I consider talk about "His Holiness" to be mostly transcendental and ultimately superstitiously-anchored rubbish.  

And this even though I DO consider Buddhism to be a marginally more scientific and enlightened philosophy or ideology (or even religion) than are either Christianity or Islam....(which in my opinion (that of a secular humanist) are much worse, at least in those particular respects)

And so even if the man (the Dalai Lama) might very well be an absolutely great guy as an individual and with a lot of accumulated personal wisdom and things to teach others (it would be quite surprising if he were not)  And moreover he's also very likely to be a great deal more wise and smart (as he already has proven) (even if he doesn't wear Gucci shoes) than the Chinese leadership who seem to be instead bumbling novices on the world stage mainly because they have been too spoiled by simply having it so easily their own way at home for so long.

So sitting on one side of the table in some big Chinese Ministry of Truth room one can imagine the Dalai Lama's representatives'  (I doubt he would be there in person)....And on the other side of the table one can imagine some junior Chinese flunkies whose main objectives and brief are to try to keep things quiet until the Olympics are over and if at all possible also avoid bringing into the room their seniors.  

Of course the Dalai Lama folks are not that stupid and they know all of this. (and if they didn't know to begin with than certainly some ver helpful (and completely disinterested of course)  characters in the Far West will have suggested it to them)   So they will try to extract tangible, concrete and irreversible concessions BEFORE the Olympics.  Will they be able to succeed? Personally I really doubt it.

And besides,  what exactly do they really want?   (that is practically implementable and workable)

All of this stuff promises to be quite interesting as it plays out and the most optimistic view is that although one cannot really "love" either side, that perhaps by pitting one side against the other something in between and marginally better might result for the hapless Tibetan people.  (who in my opinion are well served neither by Chinese occupation and colonialism nor by sitting in some temple reading ancient Palinese texts in a quasi-feudal system)

@ will

By the way Will a couple of friends of mine who live in China (I am based neither in China nor the United States at the moment) say that this site is blocked there.  Do you happen to know if this is true or not ....and if it is.... whether it's all over China or only in selected places?...(my two friends do not live in Beijing and Shanghai)  Thanks for whatever answer you may be aware of...

To me, this is a very Chinese way of dealing with this issue. Instead of admitting that perhaps they made a mistake in never dealing with the DL, they furiously denounce him, all those people who suggest contacting him, anyone who believes he is basically a saintly old man, and anyone who dares criticise anything at all the CCP has ever done in Tibet, and then meet with him anyway.

But really, their hands are tied by their previous actions. They couldn't just turn around and meet him after force feeding the "devil in monks robes" myth to their population for four decades. The population might be shocked into asking questions!!!

They can't have that happen. And so they continue to denounce him on one hand and meet him on the other.

This is however, important for symbolism. And symbols can be incredibly potent. Just look at the monster the torch relay has become.

So even if nothing concrete is likely to come out of the situation, the CCP should be given some credit for this move, I think.  

...maybe Rhys above is right and the CCP should be given some credit.  (but not too much until some results are achieved) Since it also looks like they were dragged into it half kicking and screaming....(Barroso was there just the other day telling them the same thing yet again)

The real question in my mind is what tangible good possibly can and will result from these talks that would be of some authentic short or long term benefit to the Tibetan people.  And if nothing good can (or will) result and yet some political benefit accrues to the Chinese government for having agreed to the talks,  then agreeing to talk also could be seen as a calculated and cynical move....(for which no credit whatsoever is due)

@ will

thanks for the reply

I am of the camp that believes the Olympics itself will not be the game to watch. It will be what happens in China after the closing ceremony.

Like Dave in Chicago said, the world will have moved on and focus on China's actions won't be so intense. Back to business as usual or an even greater degree of the rights wheel rolling backward (despite China's great "constitution"??)

I very upset about the media bias in mainland China.  Those frog bastards and that Jeanne d'Arc, f'in saint, my arse.  What's that frenchie senate president doing talking to Hu. English is and will always be the offical language of the olympics. We don't want any bastardized sino-french tricks from that biased eastern media thinking they gain force every one to learn french of the 2008 olympics games.

Why do you we fought the 100 years war and the 30 years war, Quebec is and has always been part of the British Empire.  This is just another example of asian manipulation and tricks to split the empire. Now the are having secret meetings with between french and china.  death to the quebec splittists they are traitors.  this is an issue for the british empire and china and france have no business.

any englishman caught walking out of carrefor with a loaf of french bread is a traitor.

who wants to be in an economic union with french goons and thugs and that sino-french IOC clique.  All english people need to protest CCTV and their insults to english people.  

I agree with max jones. This has all the hallmarks of a strategy designed to appease western leaders without the intention of pursuing any kind of meaningful dialogue.

I don't want you to agree with me you ass.  I am trying to make my own point because I am a self centered prick.

Why are so many Westerners who like to stick their dirty nose into China affair.     It's high time China need to allocate some financial means to support civil group, separatists, lobby groups and so on to fight Western countries.      For example, nurture groups who are unhappy with Brits, during the next coming Olympic game.    We've do it now.

Down with the barbarian West.  Long live the Communist peace loving nation of China.  (We don't kill Tibetans - they kill themselves).

"I don't want you to agree with me you ass."

This time you're in luck - I disagree with you that I'm an ass.

Imagethief is aware that this blog is at risk of becoming "all Olympics, all the time". This isn't intentional,

PingBack from http://beijingolympicsblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/china-will-speak-to-dalai-if-olympic-troubles-end/

@ will & @ others

Re the sequence that appeared above somewhere "using my name in vain"...(I CAN take a joke about being conceited!)

YES....Will the editor was right.

It was indeed a bogus impersonator.  Why would I write something so stupid and also about myself?  My comments seem to be causing  some not so bogus spoilers and deliberate provocateurs (and liars and cowards)  into trying to ridicule me, or insult me or distort what I am trying to say.  Which to me just tends to confirm that I am saying some right things that annoy just the right (i.e. the wrong) people.

...and by the way it has been much worse than above on some of the other threads on the Image Thief blog where I have also said a few things.   Naturally the ridiculous and pathetic ones are them.  But it has however managed to make making some my points marginally more difficult.  And it also (as you can see above) managed to confuse some honest readers and contributors.

Readers / contributors should draw their own conclusions about the kinds of folks who engage in this sort of stuff and who likely  pays their salaries....(and by the way it cannot possibly be either Rupert Murdoch nor the CIA because those are the GOOD GUYS!).....GOT IT?!....(and if not, then read more of the fake Max Jones likely to show up again)  

The one and only real Max Jones!

@ will ...and others again

....and by the way dear other honest readers of this thread (I know there are some, maybe even the majority here ) (but NOT everyone who appears)  unfortunately our good editor Will has deleted (he's had to for decency's sake) some of the worse insults and vulgarities coming from "the Fake Max Jones"

Maybe you could just think of him ( though I  think it's a "them") as those "Joneses next door" whom you don't envy..... (the ones with the bigger house and the smaller brain)....

....in which comments the Fake Max Jones (who I would like to remind you all once again is most definitely also NOT in the pay of Rupert Murdoch nor the CIA) (that would be impossible and could only be a paranoid fantasy on my part) indulged themeselves and their perverse minds by writing (logging in falsely under my own name) things such as that readers should please "excuse me" because I had to take a break from the thread to go and perform a quick fellatio job on my boyfriend  (and not said in such a technical way using English instead of plain gutter language)  of course;  

and all sorts of other such low levels of vulgarity at their own "ignoramus scumbags" level....(Was I not right right in indulging in at least SOME kind of an accurate and proper response and description of them?)  

Can you believe any of this?  I know it's hard to, but you ought to anyway, because it's all 100% true and right here on this very happy blog!.... (on the other thread about CNN and China)  but very unfortunately Will had to delete all of these comments by the impersonators, but left my own replies to them just the same......which of course now also make me look like I am coming from left field.   (those guys are good at the job they do so be aware of them)